The Light of Kirpal

September 13, 1970, Dehra Dun
(source in MP3 audio format)

I wonder if you'd talk about our home in Sach Khand.

    Suppose you've seen a beautiful building or the palace of a king somewhere and then you go to some small village made up of only earth bricks (not even fully ripened)... I want to give you an example. You may spend some time in the astral, very little in the causal, nothing more. These are matters to be experienced. The stage at which God comes into full expression is in Sach Khand or Sat Naam. That can only be experienced in the spiritual planes. There are physical, astral, causal; and beyond them the spiritual planes. You can be given some poor description to some extent of the astral and causal planes, but beyond that really cannot be understood in this language.

Is it possible to talk about what it's like living there?

    It is just like a bubble of water in the sea, sometimes found up to Sat Lok. It is all light, scintillating light, very strong. It cannot be compared with the astral or the causal lights. If you enter that place, it
is just like fountains of Light gushing out. Still beyond is the entrance hall to Sat Lok. The fountains of light come gushing out. It is something like that.

Why did we ever leave or did we have any choice?

    You know, God made the world. He sent us to the world. Why He sent us, that is the question. I think it's better to go to Him and ask Him.

Back to meditation.

    Get to Him and ask Him. Then you'll not have your intellect and you will know why He sent us. We are in fact in a prison. The house is on fire. Man should not ask who has set the fire to the house. It is better to get out of the house and then inquire. Instead of inquiring who lit the fire, why he lit it, come out; get out of this danger, this house. Transcend. Go into it. Then you'll know many things. After all, we will come to know it is His will. Why did He make the world? Why does man give birth to children? It is his wish, isn't it?

I suppose that's to keep Kal's realm populated, isn't it?

    Well, it is your wish. You go for that purpose. What is the reason He sent us? We are sent down. Sometimes we were in the lap of Him. It was His will and He willed it. Suppose I go from India to the United States. There I'll have to abide by the laws of the United States. It is something like that. He sent us. Why did He send us? It was His will. All Masters said like that. Nothing more can be said. Once this question was put to our Master who replied, "Let us go to Him and then ask Him; it is

In some aspects of Indian philosophy it's described as God enjoying Himself.

    A way of expression. Enjoying Himself. Have you ever frolicked with yourself? If you have, you are a miniature God; Micro-god. He said that the world is a joy, seeing His own greatness at the same time; what is it? Then it means He was all alone and He was very much lonely? So He wanted some creation to feel joy, but why He made the world, who can reply? Why He sent us here. It is His will. The first action which reacted in the shape of sending us down. We did nothing wrong. We were sent down. That was from no reaction. In the world we sow something and reap, isn't it? What seed have we sown? We have remained in Him.

That's the big question.

    These are not my words. These are the words of the Master. Now we are reaping what we have sown. But what did we do before we were sent down to the world ...

But you do hold out the hope that at least we'll get the answer to that at perhaps the top of the mental realm or the causal. Is the answer there?

    Past there. Not there either. Up to there you will only know the reaction of our own past births.

In Sach Khand the answer is available?

    Sach Khand, no. The information of why you've been born, reborn, here, there, you can have on the causal plane, too. But this very question of why we were sent down into the world cannot be substantiated there. It is for God alone to reply. He sent us. Why did He send us when we did not do anything wrong? Did you do anything wrong? What sin did we commit before being sent down here?

Well, the Old Testament explanation about Adam and Eve - How should that be regarded?

    Adam and Eve in Genesis recorded their own names. But how did the creation come into being? Look here, I tell you. Did the seed precede the fruit or did fruit precede the seed? Did egg precede the hen or did hen precede the egg? No reply, you see. It is all delusion. It is all maya (delusion). So there's reaction. Adam and Eve - that's only the position; there's one man, one woman; and they say Adam was first and then Eve, then she did something - she ate the fruit of the tree. God had come down and
out of him created Eve. Before? But what before that? Suppose you know? How would it help you, dear friend? The house is on fire, let us come out.

Well, we're all trying to get out of that house, but the feet seem to be stuck in the mud there.

    Truly speaking, we do not want to come out. Very rarely we do. And those who do, they change a little bit.

You say truly speaking most people aren't trying?

    No. Most people don't want to leave all this. What is this? To give up this beautiful body they're carrying. All attachments, relations and these temples, houses and cars and everything. Who would leave them?

So most of the people here who are trying stand a pretty good chance of doing it? Of course, with the Grace of the Master.

    Even of those who have taken up this path, very few do really want to go. They put in time and still they are stuck fast. They pray to God so that they may have something of the world here and in the hereafter. Very few there are who really want to go home.

What percentage of those of us here are going to make it?

    The seed that was sown cannot be destroyed. It must bring forth fruit.

Let me ask what percentage will make it this year?

    How will it help you?

I was just reading an article that You wrote that says three or possibly four lives.

    I never wrote like that. No, no, no, you might have read this in the sayings of the Masters. I say even the four stages can be passed in one life; not necessarily four lives.

Yes, You say that in the article, too.

    In one life. Then why four lives? There are four stages of development. That's all. In the first stage, man is hungry; then he meets the Master, then He attaches us to Naam, then he should be fully devoted to Him. There are different stages of development. The hunger is there; the bread is there; he eats it and is satisfied. Not necessarily four lives. But man is in the make, I tell you. Some are more ready, some are comparatively less ready. But a man can pass through all these four stages in one life. Although we find there are four stages required, some people do interpret differently, that's all.

Is there any way of accurately telling who has succeeded in breaking through into perhaps the first one or two stages just by evaluating their characteristics? I mean, should they suddenly become purer for having broken through into the mental and the astral?

    I can give you some instances. Now I tell you, one lady from the West wrote me a letter. She has passed through Trikuti. I put her a question and she replied. She replied with vague ideas of that plane. She had experienced some but not fully. I explained it to her. She still lives there in the West.

Let's see. That's the top of the mental.

    Yes. The people do progress, you see. Here also we have people who have progressed; in the West, too. They're few of course, but still there are some.

Are those who have progressed perhaps that far usually the quiet type that never call attention to themselves at all?

    Why not? They have got this body, the temple of God. They thank God. They while away this visit by going within. There's very unusual pleasure in God, of course.

I was just wondering if there were any personality characteristics that would identify a person ...

    The main thing is, he'd be loving. He will be glad to give, not receive. Love knows service and sacrifice. He loves God, loves God residing in every heart, he loves the animals, he loves the snakes, he loves the birds; they're the younger brothers of the family of God. He wishes "peace be unto all the world over under Thy will, oh God" with no question.

Having gone to that plane or the mental plane he wouldn't retain any personality quirks then?

    Personality blurs. Consciousness of self, unless it is absorbed, as I gave you an example, like a bubble on the water that then dissipates in the water and it is something like the water. Let me give you an example. A newly married wife is asking her mother, "How shall I know how it is when a child is born?" You see? And her mother told her, "You'll have the baby and then tell us yourself." When you go up, then say something. When you feel that way you'll say, "Oh, this is like that, this is like that." Until then you cannot even think of any words. He is calling us. You'll know. Are you sure, are you satisfied, convinced, that the Path you have been put on is right?

Oh, yes.

    Then go on, that's all. You've had some glimpses, if not more. Some proofs?


    Then go on. If you can have things now, others can be expected. Forget the past and forget the future. What will happen and what will not happen. That's the question when the mother told her daughter, "You will see, then tell us." Go on, leave all questions. All questions are only to first understand. When you've followed-understood, then go on with it. First, you're not the body. Are you? Well, let's rise above it, pass into the beyond. Stay there longer. There's more bliss there than here. All glory and beauty lies within you. When you are sure and are now convinced that the way is all right, and you come to know something of it, some inner experience, and I say this will follow.

The case of the kindergartener wanting to get to the sixth grade too quickly.

    Time factor is a necessity. As I told you, the strong man revels in his strength and the weaker man wonders how he got it. Many of you got something. Others [from different schools] have no experience or very little experience. There are hundreds of so-called masters; thousands go to them. They are not convinced of it because they don't see inside. Now, at least, thank God, you have something convincing. Master lays out the criterion: "Don't believe in the words of the Master unless you see for your own self." If a man is not convinced that there is light inside, he will ask, "How can there be light?" One Saint came here, a so-called Saint, he was giving long talks. I went to hear what he had to say. He came to know something about me from somebody and began a very long talk. "Well, what is inside; there is all filth, all blood, intestines, nothing inside. If you want to see the sun you can see it in the high heavens during the day." People were wonder struck! What was he after? Well, he came to me. I said, "There is Light inside, you can see." But what about those people who came to him and others like him? Thank God you are not one of them now. You see there is something. You bear testimony.

You've initiated yourself some of those people who talk like that. Some of these other teachers, haven't you? I mean you've initiated some, but they don't like to admit that you've initiated them. I can think of a couple of examples.

    There are a few cases like that. Definitely.

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